22 Arizona tribes flags removed and Kupuna's sustainable land stewardship

April 02, 2025 00:38:13
22 Arizona tribes flags removed and Kupuna's sustainable land stewardship
KMUD - Heart of the Earth
22 Arizona tribes flags removed and Kupuna's sustainable land stewardship

Apr 02 2025 | 00:38:13

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Show Notes

Today 4 stories : 1) Misleading Native history. 2) Flag removal in Arizona 3)The fight for climate and environmental justice has always been led by indigenous.3) Land back to the Potawatomi Nation in Illinois 4) Funny story from Ricey Wild

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Episode Transcript

[00:00:02] Speaker A: HeyMud podcast presents good morning and welcome to Heart of the Earth. This is a program about Native Americans and other indigenous cultures. My name is Agnes, y'all. Wouldn't be here if you weren't living on the stolen land. Folks, this is, you know, it was just really hard for so many Native people when Native American and women. Just unbelievable. The 200 words that you know are not allowed in any of the government websites or whatever. It's just crazy. But this is from Levi Rickett from Native News Online, and he says each May in Holland, Michigan, about 30 miles from where I live, one of the largest annual public gatherings in the United States takes place. The Holland Tulip festival attracts around 500,000 visitors from across the country, generating an economic impact of nearly $50 million annually. Attendees can marvel at the breathtaking sight of millions of tulips in full bloom while witnessing Holland residents dressed in traditional Dutch attire, complete with wooden shoes, known as kloppen. As part of the festivities, these residents scrubbed the main street in downtown Holland before participating in a parade where Dutch descendants of all ages dance in celebration of their heritage. When I was a child, my mother took my siblings and me to the Tulip Festival. Looking back, I never felt threatened by the Dutch celebration. Years later, however, a different experience gave me pause. While attending an open house for my then second grader son in late September, I met her, his teacher, and took a peek inside her desk to see how organized it was. As I turned around, my eyes landed on a plaque above the teacher's desk that read, quote, God made the Dutch the best. I immediately found the plaque threatening, not for myself, but for my son. I didn't want his impressionable young mind absorbing a message that elevated one group above others. Before leaving the classroom, I waited until the teacher finished speaking with other parents and then expressed my concern. I told her I didn't think the plaque was appropriate, as it could subtly influence my son's thinking in ways that promoted exclusion. She giggled and explained that the plaque was a gift from her niece and nephew, meant to express pride in their Dutch heritage, not to offend others. I acknowledged her perspective, but insisted it sent the wrong message and should be removed. Fast forward to today, where we're witnessing a far more calculated form of cultural exclusion. Reflecting on the Dutch celebration, I was reminded of it again this past week when news broke that articles recognizing the contributions of the Navajo Code Talkers during World War II were being scrubbed from the Department of Defense websites. During World War II, the Navajo Code Talkers played a crucial role in securing military communications in South Pacific theater. Using their native language, they developed an unbreakable code that enabled the US Military to transmit vital battlefield information without interference from the Japanese. The original group of 29 code talkers was so effective that by the end of the war, more than 400 Navajo servicemen had been called upon to carry out this critical task. Their contributions remained classified until 1968. Well, last Tuesday, the Washington Post had reported a page on the Defense Department's webpage that celebrated Ira Hayes, a Pima Gilet River Indian community, was removed. Hays is part of the iconic Pulitzer Prize winning photo that captured six Marines planting a US flag on Imo Jimo in 1945 during World War II. Also on Tuesday, 22 tribal flags representing Arizona tribes were removed from a Veterans Administration hospital in Phoenix. Why? Because of a new Trump directive to only display the US Flag and state flags. And I'm going to do a story on that in just a minute. Well, tribal leaders responded with outrage at the Native American erasure. Navajo Nation President Boo Nygren contacted the White House with his discontent. And later in the week, the Pentagon restored the Navajo code talker pages and the one celebrating Ira Hayes. Quote, white House officials reached out to my office and confirmed that removal of Navajo from the agency websites was a result of an error caused by the artificial intelligence AI automated review process associated with diversity, equity and inclusion DEI initiatives. Nygren said in a statement. Yeah, right. Okay. The explanation is as insulting as the erasure itself. How laughable. Blame the disrespect for Native American contributions and heroism on AI. More likely someone some racist human keyed in words that reflect diversity into some computer that searched for Native American pages and erased them. The pattern is unmistakable. The hypocrisy of erasing the contributions of dark skinned people becomes even clearer with the Trump administration's decision to revert Fort Liberty in North Carolina back to Fort Bragg, a name that honors Confederate General Bracton Bragg, who fought against the nation during the Civil War. If we are to honor heritage, let it be in a way that uplifts all people, ensuring that every culture's contributions are recognized and valued, not erased. Just as I respect Dutch culture being celebrated in Michigan, I oppose letting one group think God made them better. Let's be clear. We the people should celebrate all, not just white people. Native American war heroes pose no threat to white people. We are all related. And again, thank you, Levi. Yeah. A Defense Department effort to scrub diversity, equity and inclusion content from military websites inadvertently removed the pages honoring Native American veterans, prompting the Shoshone Bannock tribes to reject the Pentagon's explanation that artificial intelligence was to blame. In a formal statement, Chairman Lee Juan Tendoy of the Fort Hall Business Council expressed deep skepticism about the Defense Department's justification. Quote, since the Revolutionary War, American Indians and Alaska Natives have served with distinction in every major American conflict. This dedication continues today. According to the 2021 Department of Defense profile of the military community, 19,867 self identified American Indians or Alaska Natives serve in all branches and components of the military. And like so many others before them, they took the oath of enlistment to protect and defend the Constitution as the first Purple Heart reservation in the nation. The Shoshone Manoc tribes joined other tribes and organizations in expressing alarm at the removal of Native American references from the Department of Defense websites. And although some of those errors have been corrected, we remain unsatisfied with the explanations that removals were due to a, quote, automated removal process or artificial intelligence. Machines should not decide whether to remove references to our veterans. We condemn this attempt as well as all other attempts to erase history. The controversial removals occurred amid Defense Secretary Pete Hegtsev's push to eliminate the DEI efforts across military platforms. And according to Politico, Pentagon spokesperson Sean Parnell said in a video statement Thursday that, quote, some important content was incorrectly removed. He blamed AI tools for the errors and said purged material would be reviewed, Politico reported. And following widespread criticism, many pages had been restored by Friday, including those dedicated to Navajo cod talkers who transmitted messages between troops in World War II using their language. However, it's not sure what other historical content is still missing or if all the removal content will ever be restored in its entirety. Other Native tribes have also spoken across the country. The National Congress of American Indians also issued a statement, quote, as the federal government implements new policies, including those affecting DEI initiatives, it must not allow trust and treaty obligations to become collateral damage. We call on the Trump administration to prioritize the recognition of Native service members and their history, ensuring political changes do not diminish their contributions. We remain steadfast in advocating for Native rights and stand ready to collaborate with federal partners to uphold these commitments. And I. I just, I couldn't believe when I read this. Yeah, because on March 18, the flags of Arizona's 22 tribal nations were removed from the Carl T. Hayden VA Medical center in central Phoenix and returned back to the Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian community. This has sparked outrage among the tribes in Arizona. This is part of a new flag policy implemented by the Department of Veterans affairs that limits the display of flags at VA facilities. The policy is intended to establish consistency across the department and aligns with longstanding Department of Defense guidelines the VA stated in a news Release. Only the US flag flags of US states and territories, military service flags, VA flags and official flags of US agencies and flags representing prisoners of war missing in action, senior exclusive services, military command units and burial flags for honoring veterans and reservists are permitted. Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian Community Vice President Ricardo Leonard is calling on Veteran Affairs Secretary Doug Collins to restore the display of all Tribal Nation flags at the Phoenix VA Hospital. Quote I was surprised and appalled when the staff of the Phoenix Veterans Affairs Hospital dropped off all 22 Arizona tribal nation flags at our office, explaining that they could no longer display them. Gila River Indian Community Governor Stephen R.O. lewis sent an angry letter to the VA calling for the flags to be brought back to the hospital. Quote the removal ignores the long standing recognition that tribes and tribal membership is a political status, not a racial classification, he said. The move comes Shortly after the U.S. department of Defense began deleting websites about the Navajo Code talkers who were instrumental to American America's victory in the Pacific theater in World War II. Indigenous people across the United States have the highest serving rate serving in the armed forces at five times the national average, according to the National Indian Council on Aging, and have served with distinction in every major conflict for over 200 years. You know, when I read that, I laughed. I'm going like what, you think removing 14 flags is somehow going to make Native people disappear? You stole our land, marched. Incredible. Native people marched them across the United States, stole their children, put them in boarding schools, ignored treaties. We're still here. We're still here. Removing flags is not going to take us away. [00:12:35] Speaker B: KMUD is a community radio station in the Redwood Region of Northern California. Donate to Support people powered radio.org. [00:12:56] Speaker A: Well, this comes from a collaboration between the Indian collective and yes, and as a tidal wave of authoritarianism crashes across the United States, it may seem as if nothing is sacred. But in these moments of uncertainty, it is the sacred to which we must return. For the Indigenous peoples of Moana Kea, across the water, from our relatives on Turtle island and around the globe, our fight for justice is rooted in our ancestral connection and kinship to the land, water and earth. Our Kupuna ancestors have long practiced sustainable stewardship values including which translates to care of the land and koalina responsibility to restore both our environment and our communities real climate. Justice work requires honoring Indigenous knowledge and empowering grassroots efforts to protect our sacred relationship with Mother Earth. As we navigate a volatile economic and political environment, our resolve must be clear. Climate justice cannot take a back seat. We cannot abandon the decades of work to create healthier environments, regenerative systems, and economic opportunities in tribal, Indigenous, and rural communities across the country. The fight for climate and environmental justice has always been led by indigenous, black, and frontline communities because we have always been the first to experience environmental harm. The forced displacement of Indigenous peoples from our lands was one of the earliest acts of environmental injustice, literally paving the way for extractive industries that have since poisoned land, air, and water. Today, fossil fuels projects continue to bring violence to Indigenous communities, and as a result, Indigenous communities around the globe have always been and continue to be on the front lines protecting our land and our communities. When we view social issues through the lens of climate justice, we create pathways for real, systematic change. Climate justice is not a separate battle from racial justice, Indigenous rights, gender equality, or economic justice. It is the through line that connects them all. Take, for example, the crisis of missing and murdered Indigenous women and relatives, which is fueled in large part by transient male workers in fossil fuel extraction camps near reservations. The MMIWR plus crisis is inseparable from environmental exploitation. Ending pipeline construction and mining projects is not just an environmental imperative, it is a necessary step to halt violence against Indigenous communities, against women, and against our two spirit relatives. When we view social issues through the lens of climate justice, we create pathways for real, systematic change. Investing in renewable energy and land stewardship is not only about sustainability. It is about sovereignty, community resilience, and protection from the rising tide of authoritarianism. Indigenous communities have long held the key to climate resilience. Traditional ecological knowledge. TEK offers regenerative models of land and water stewardship, ensuring sustainability for future generations. One example is Sacred Storm Buffalo in South Dakota, an organization revitalizing Lakota culture, increasing job and food security, and reconnecting people back to our land through regenerative buffalo ranching. Buffalo are native to this land and therefore have a symbiotic relationship with it. Their presence creates biodiversity in many ways. They graze the grasses down to different heights, providing nesting grounds for birds. They also roll around and pack down the soil in depressions in the ground known as wallows, which fill with rainwater and offer breeding pools for amphibians as well as a source of drinking water for wildlife across the landscape. And buffalo travel long distances to graze and find water, their sharp hooves churning the earth along the way, breaking up roots and aerating the Soil to allow for growth for new growth. Pre colonization, 60 million buffalo roamed north America, supporting both the ecosystem and indigenous life waves. The US government nearly wiped out the buffalo in a deliberate strategy to starve indigenous people. Today, Native led projects like Sacred Storm Buffalo are restoring buffalo populations, reviving local economics, local economies and rebuilding biodiversity. Similarly, Kumano Akeala K I K A in Hawaii is restoring indigenous farming techniques to grow staple foods like the kalo, the taro. And before Western contact, Hawaii was a fully autonomous island nation supporting nearly a million people through the Ahua system, a sophisticated land management approach that connected mountain agriculture to shoreline aquaculture, ensuring ecological balance and abundant resources. Pre colonization, Native Hawaiians used regenerative farming techniques such as diverting stream water to nourish wetland crops before returning new nutrient rich water to the ocean, which in turn sustained thriving fish ponds. Colonization and exploitive plantation agriculture, particularly sugarcane, dismantled the system and caused widespread environmental and cultural devastation. The US Military and modern tourism industry has extracted environmental harm even further, creating the conditions that led to the devastating Maui wildfires and continue to cause shocking levels of homelessness among Native Hawaiians today. The Kika is revitalizing traditional farming practices, restoring ecosystems and producing culturally appropriate food to support Hawaiian communities. And by teaching youth 21st century versions of traditional farming practices, they are also strengthening cultural identity and mental health, providing young people with a sense of belonging. These are just a couple examples of indigenous led efforts providing that climate solutions already exist and make sense for our environment, our communities and our economy. Indigenous communities are developing solutions to mitigate the climate crisis based on real time experiences coupled with generational knowledge that is rooted in relationships with their environment. With government agencies and programs being gutted on a mass scale, leaving countless organization and efforts unsure of their futures, the role of the private sector has never been more urgent. Private foundations, high net worth individuals and philanthropic organizations must step in to close the funding gap and ensure that communities on the front lines of the climate crisis are not abandoned. We need strategic investment in climate resilience. Indigenous land stewardship community led sustainable sustainability projects and the frameworks and the strategies that indigenous black and frontline organizers have spent decades developing. The Bloomberg foundation, for instance, has committed billions to combat climate change. This must become the norm, not the exception. We already hold the knowledge necessary to navigate the next phase of the climate crisis. What we need now is unwavering support. Philanthropy alone is not enough. We must also strengthen grassroots networks by increasing our resilience efforts. Every community should be asking, how can we become more climate resilient? How can we build mutual aid networks that support people during climate disasters? How can we use climate action as a tool for broader social change and economic empowerment? How does our existing work shift if we look at it through a climate justice lens? Indigenous communities are developing solutions to mitigate the climate crisis based on real time experiences coupled with generational knowledge that is rooted in relationships with their environment. Investment in climate justice in Indigenous and rural communities helps those communities become energy sovereign. It helps communities access affordable and healthy food, and it creates regenerative economic opportunities. It just makes sense. Mitigating climate change is not a new endeavor for Indigenous, tribal and rural communities. We already hold the knowledge necessary to navigate the next phase of the climate crisis. What we need now is unwavering support from the philanthropists, from organizers, and from every person who believes in a just future. Climate justice means food security for all, clean air and water for all, the development of clean energy on tribal lands, and protection for our Mother Earth. Climate justice is radical justice, Indigenous sovereignty and the path to liberation for all people and Mother Earth. We must lock arms and stand for all that is sacred now. [00:22:59] Speaker B: KMUD is a community radio station in the Redwood Region of Northern California. Donate to Support People powered [email protected]. [00:23:22] Speaker A: Well more than 175 years ago in the 1830s, Chief Shahne left his reservation in northern Illinois to visit his family in Kansas. While he was away, the US government illegally auctioned off more than 1,280 acres of his land near what is now the village of Shabbona in southern DeKalb County. Today, in an historic act typically requiring congressional approval, Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker signed into law a bill transferring an entire state park to the Prairie Band Potawatomi Nation, restoring a portion of its stolen land. This moment reflects the power of collaboration and the shared desire to build a future rooted in justice and respect, prairie Band Potawatomi Chairman Joseph Zeke Rupnick said. Illinois has shown true courage and vision by leading the way in the land backed movement, demonstrating that healing and reconciliation are possible. Shabona Lake State park sits on the nation's original reservation land in southern DeKalb county, and under the new law, the Prairie Ban Patawannami Nation will reclaim the park, pledging to keep it open to the public and enhance its infrastructure. The nation will now work with the state to finalize a land management agreement, and while some homes remain within the original reservation boundaries, the legislation ensures that only the state park land is returned to the Prairie Band, leaving homeowners unaffected. Currently, deeds for these homes include a clause recognizing the rights and claims of Chief Shabina's descendants. Plans are underway to introduce federal legislation that would remove this clause assuring homeowners of clear title to their properties. Quote we extend our heartfelt thanks to the bill's sponsors, State Senator Mark Walker, a Democrat of Arlington Heights State Representative Will Guzzati, a Democrat of Chicago and Senate President Don Harmon, House Speaker Emanuel Chris Welsh that the Illinois Department of natural resources and Governor J.B. pritzker's administration. For this unwavering support, Rupnik said, quote, we look forward to building a future of partnership and mutual respect with the state of Illinois. We are proud to once again call this land home. For nearly two centuries, the Prairie Band of Potawatomi Nation has fought for federal recognition of its reservation and rightful claim to the land. In 2001, the U.S. department of the Interior confirmed that the Sha'anah Reservation remains federally recognized Indian country, since the US Government never obtained the required congressional approval to sell it. The nation has been deprived of its land's culture, social and economic benefits since the 1830s. Still, it remains committed to preserving and improving Shabbona Lake State park for all visitors. Quote Returning our land is a necessary step toward the recognition we deserve as a people and as citizens of Illinois, Rupnik said. And despite being on native land, Illinois has no federally recognized tribes until last year, when a portion of the Prairie Band's lands were placed in trust. And on April 19th of 2024, the US Department of the Interior placed sections of the Cha Ina Reservation in TR for the nation, making it the only federally recognized tribal nation in Illinois. Over the past two decades, the Prairie Band Apotawatomie Nation invested $10 million to repurchase lands within the original reservation boundaries. And by placing the land into trust, the nation has transferred legal land titles to the US Government, ensuring the land is recognized as, quote, Indian country under federal, state and tribal jurisdiction. Hooray. I was just really happy and excited when I read this, and I want to share this with you. And this is from Principal Chief Chuck Hoskin Jr. Of the Cherokee Nation. And this really moved me because it's about community. The Cherokee word gadoogi is so ubiquitous in our culture that everyone, even if they're not fluent in the Cherokee language, knows what it means to work together as a community for the good of us all. This is one of our most cherished values. Since launching In December of 2023, the Cherokee Nation's Gujuji Corps has brought this value to life. The program has rapidly grown into a powerful presence of service, volunteerism and community building for our tribe. A wide array of volunteer opportunities, from disaster relief and storm cleanup to educational camps and environmental conserv have enabled Gadoogee Corps participants to give back to our communities and strengthen bonds between Cherokee citizens. We are so proud to see this program create a ripple effect of positive change across our 7,000 square, 7,000 square mile Cherokee Nation reservation and around the globe, wherever our citizens live. I know when many Cherokees hear about our commitment to one another, they are moved to join in themselves. One of Gadou Guicore's greatest successes is its unique ability to bring Cherokees of multiple generations and backgrounds together. We have seen Cherokees from elders to youth, from living on the reservation to at large citizens, from urban to rural, all joining in the spirit of service. Every one of them gains a deeper connection to the core values that have sustained Cherokee people for centuries. Under the strategic leadership of Gadoogi Corps Director Sean Crittenden, we have met immediate needs and instilled long term Cherokee pride. And we are only getting started as the potential for growth is tremendous. Expanding our outreach to college aged Cherokees through partnerships with universities, nonprofit groups and online platforms will ensure we engage more young leaders who are eager to jump in and lend a hand. This year we had several college students, including groups from Kansas State University and the University of Connecticut on the reservation to volunteer during their spring break. They worked on things like building handicap ramps, conducting neighborhood cleanup efforts and cemetery maintenance, while also learning more about Cherokee history and culture. Opportunities specifically designed for our elders are also coming online, like the Gadou Shikor Legacy Living Initiative and a partnership with the Grand Gateway Economic Development Authority to support its quote Senior Companionship Program. These efforts will provide meaningful volunteer opportunities for our elders such as making handwritten notes for school backpack programs and valentines for veterans and helping put together emergency preparedness kits and care packages. These are simple but very impactful acts and allow our elders to make a difference in our community. We also expanded our ability to use digital tools, including a Gaducci core webpage and improving access to the Gadushi Portal to provide a streamlined way for citizens to sign up for all volunteer opportunities. The success of Gadushi Corps shows the world what we have always the power of Cherokee values endures. Service is not just a program, it is a way of life for the Cherokee people and we can ensure that every Cherokee citizen, no matter where they live, feels that they are part of building a stronger collective future for our nation. And again, this is From Chuck Hoskin Jr. He's the 18th elected principal chief of the Cherokee Nation, the largest Indian tribe in the United States. He is only the second elected Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation from Vinita, the first being Thomas Buffington, who served from 1899 to 1903. And prior to being elected to Principal Chief, Hodgkin served as the tribe's secretary. He also formerly served as a member of the Council of the Cherokee Nation, representing District 11 for six years. And I want to thank Levi Rickett and Native News Online for sharing that story. Because yes, volunteering in your community just makes you a bigger and better community. I want to share this with you. It's from Ricey Wild and I always read her columns. I don't share them on the show a lot, but I found this to be really funny because I could very, very well relate and she says on aging omg how can one be aching while sleeping in a soft bed? I've slept on floors before and woke up feeling fine. These days are long gone and I now struggle to simply get out of bed. And ain't easy being an okay woman. Yes, I know I'm a complainer and I've shared way too much with yous. But I am human and I'm glad I've had yous in my life for so long. Grateful. You betcha. It's been an adventure and I know I'm blessed by your presence here in my space. Know that yous are loved by me. I don't remember the last pow wow I attended. However, I do feel the connection with like minded spirits and I miss fry bread and moose meat soup. What I want is a ribbon skirt so I fit in. But saving money is seriously difficult for me. I exist below the national poverty level even after working for most of my life starting at 13 years young, I was not in the fields picking vegetables or fruit. No, I had a job named Native Heritage, a newsletter learning about writing, poetry, photography and journalism by indigenous kids. Yet I got a small check and I was happy then. Here I am now. That was in the mid-70s. That is also where I met a few Lifeline friends. Lifetime friends. They know who they are. Totally off topic. I have an all white cat named Tom Petty. He's too soft and handsome and protects me at night from evil. Tomtoma's also huge, over 27 pounds. No kidding. Anywho, I didn't know just how brown I am after I petted him as a kitten. It's all good. I used to seriously wonder why pink people tanned just hard only to be racist against those of us who are naturally beautiful. But I digress. I'm older and often forget the original thought. It's been an adventure. I'm just saying, like having siblings coming out of the woodwork. More on that in my book. It'll be fun. Scandalous. Yes. Watch me. Now that Ma and PA have passed, I do not owe anybody in my family grace. Well, except for my unc Vern. He is a good person, if a bit if irascible. Now I think about that it's a genetic trait from where I came from. Oh, I was talking to my therapist today and I remembered that some people end up from where they were end up from where they were born. Case in point moi. I was born in the community hospital to an unwed mother. My birth certificate had no father listed, so therefore I am a virgin birth certificate. Now bow down. Miracles. You know they happen. Lol. Not me. It is a miracle I survived poverty and neglect if I had not had my maternal grandparents. Sigh. I am grateful that my family are big readers, for if not for them, I may have grown up stupid and ignorant. My only child, my son, would ask questions and one time I responded because I read. When son was in prison, he read and read and read. Not only fictional books, but magazines and many sources of relevant information. Afterward, when we had conversations, I realized the student had become the master. I was overwhelmed and proud of him at the same time. Blessings. Words matter. So when I write becoming so old and whiny, I now get why older people are so cranky. Some of them live in a world of pain and regret. So please be kind and if you should become older, be empathetic. My therapist said this state of being is not for the weak. I agree. I'm up to 15 plus surgeries now that I can recall. Yes, I am grateful for my amenities, but I did not anticipate living for so long given my former lifestyle that I would be so decrepit and wah wah wah. Yet here I am, the one who rock, climbed with dragon lady nails and faced down a spider who dared peep at me with eight eyes. I didn't know which one to look at. Living Northland. I also ice skated, snowmobiled thanks to the neighbors and later in my teens downhill skied. Plus I played king of the hill where one would climb up the snow bank and push everyone down who dared to challenge the king. I suppose I'm being all angry and I suppose I'm being all angry and resentful of what I used to be able to do. There is a story of a man from Irez who was called Old Wrinkled Meat who claimed to have lived over 100 plus years. His response to the question how have you lived so long? Let the women do the work. So thank you Ricey Wild, because I sure I sure needed a a good laugh during these times. And they may be trying times, but we always have Mother Earth. She's the best friend you're ever going to have. Look at the sky at night, look at the sky during the day. Thank the creator. Thank the creator every morning and go to sleep with a smile on your face. It's a healthy thing to do. [00:37:53] Speaker B: This has been a K Mutt Podcast to listen to other shows and more episodes of this show. Find us on all the platforms where you get your podcast and also on our website site kmud.org.

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